Gender equality: an update with Ariane Bénard, president of the BNP Paribas MixCity association

Ariane Bénard is a woman passionate about the subject of gender equality. After a career in communications and marketing at BNP Paribas, Ariane joined the Engagement department, then human resources to work on issues around employee engagement. At the same time, Ariane is president of theBNP Paribas MixCity association, which supports BNP Paribas employees in their personal and professional development, while promoting diversity and gender equality at all levels. She is also vice-president of the 2Gap Association, created just before the lockdown with the aim of building a world where women share governance equally with men. We met Ariane to take stock of the situation and discuss the solutions that companies can implement to reduce the gap.

The BNP Paribas MixCity association promotes parity in the professional world. Can you tell us more about it?

This association is 12 years old and has always been committed to ensuring that women access positions of responsibility within BNP Paribas, and thus combat the glass ceiling. The association was initially a little “elitist”, it was only open to senior female executives in the company, but over the years it seemed useful to us to open the association to everyone because we all have a role to play in building a more equal society. Diversity is also a man's business! Our focus remains gender equality since we are convinced that economic performance also depends on this gender diversity. I am a 51-year-old woman, mother of two daughters aged 15 and 19, it is not by chance that I am invested in the cause of gender equality. We must prepare the future for this new generation of women.

And it is very important, I think, to open this association to men. We can only win this fight when part of the mobilization is carried by men. Particularly fathers of girls. They are very aware of the difficulties that their daughters risk facing. By becoming members of our association, men better understand the difficulties that women face on a daily basis, the injustices they are victims of, the stereotypes they endure. Ultimately, they themselves become actors in this more equal society.

Why is it important for women to access positions of responsibility, at managerial level and above?

The problem is linked to the lack of diversity and diversity. The fact that there is not sufficient representation of women in the governing bodies actually penalizes the organizations. Coming from different origins, of different sexes, allows us to have an extremely complementary approach, and it is this complementarity that is important. I am not one of those people who finds that women have certain qualities that men do not have and vice versa. But I think that the combination of the two sexes brings an absolutely incredible richness, just like the mixing of cultures and ages. I would also say that women are sometimes less in competition and more in pragmatism, and so the fact that they join governing bodies really allows us to rethink the subjects and to treat them from a slightly different angle.

What concrete actions are you taking, with the BNP Paribas Mixcity Association, to help women obtain positions of responsibility?

Within the association, we work on developing the skills of our members with professional coaches. There are individual and group programs. Audacity, the ability to negotiate is like the alphabet or a foreign language. It can be learned. In our country, women are less daring, due to a historically patriarchal model. We need to help them understand where it comes from and find the keys, the strength and the courage to change their behavior. We also have mentoring programs, and there, we generally have more men than women mentors, and more women than men “mentees”. Men have a different way of approaching things and can teach us a lot. They offer a different prism. I experienced it again recently, I spoke about a problem at work to a friend, who suggested a solution that I had not thought of, based on networking. Men often ask themselves fewer questions than we do, sometimes seek excellence less than we do, and do not hesitate to ask their network when they have needs. This allows them to move forward more quickly, often. We must draw inspiration from these practices.

In your opinion, why is this subject of gender equality evolving so slowly?

Since humanity has existed, the world has been designed by men for men. And while some today are quite willing to leave a little room for a little more than half of humanity, others are not. Some men are very fiercely attached to power, they do not want to share this power, and that is where they are wrong. Because it is not by allowing women to access positions of governance that they will stop being listened to or valued. On the contrary, a little competition would allow us to sort through and keep those who are the most efficient. Human beings are generally resistant to change, which implies leaving their comfort zone. We must therefore support this change, and when I say support, I mean making people understand the advantages of this change.

For example, we often talk about quotas. I am totally in favor of quotas because we live in a society where what cannot be measured does not exist. So, to make things move, to move the lines, it seems important to me to put these quotas in place. The day we achieve perfect equality, the question can be reexamined, of course. But for now, these quotas make it possible to accelerate change.

Precisely, on October 27th, the Senate adopted the Rixain Bill on economic and professional equality. Is this good news?

This text was presented 10 years after the adoption of the Copé-Zimmermann law, which required 40% women on company boards of directors. We can only welcome a bill in favor of gender parity because, as Elisabeth Moreno, Minister for Equality between Women and Men, points out, "Restoring equality is not granting them a favor (...) , it is repairing an injustice that nothing can justify ." As a reminder, the bill provides for a proportion of at least 30% women in 2027, and 40% in 2030 among senior executives and members of governing bodies with at least 1,000 employees.

However, while very positive effects have been observed with the Copé-Zimmermann law, change takes time. There is a lack of notable progress in the distribution of positions of responsibility within companies and the civil service. I would happily quote the centrist president of the delegation for women's rights, Annick Billon: " The quotas worked but did not have the expected trickle-down effect."

So, yes, it is good news because this bill defines gender diversity objectives in supporting companies of the public bank Bpifrance and the imposition of the presence of at least 40% of women on Bpifrance investment committees by 2027. On the other hand, an equality index will be set up in higher education establishments and there are gender diversity objectives in juries, aimed at combating gender bias. Finally, and this is very important, this law establishes the obligation to pay salary or social benefits into a bank account of which the employee is the holder or joint holder.

On the other hand, the Senate has amended the article relating to facilitating access to teleworking for women at the end of pregnancy . In short, better, but we can do even better!

On social networks, we can sense a certain weariness with the subject of gender equality, particularly with the place that CSR occupies today in official speeches. Why is it important to continue to lead this fight?

I think that nothing is ever a given. This is the very famous, but even more true today, quote from Simone de Beauvoir about crises: “Never forget that a political, economic or religious crisis will be enough for women’s rights to be called into question. These rights are never a given. You will have to remain vigilant throughout your life.”

And we absolutely saw it with Covid. When we see that in November, the gender pay gap in 2021 showed a widening gap of 16.5%, compared to 15.5% in 2020, we cannot say that we have “talked about it enough”. If there was nothing more to do, there would be 50% women in the governing bodies, we would have had at least one female president of the republic, and perhaps a better representation of women in the public sector. This is not the case today. I would draw your attention to the fact that in France, the private sector is doing better than the public sector, whereas the latter should be exemplary in this regard!

At 2Gap, which brings together mixed and women's networks from the private and public sectors. We've been around for less than two years and yet I discover new things every day, and I see how much resistance there is. Every time we try to impose change, as we saw with Marie-Pierre Rixain's law, there are opponents in the Senate or the National Assembly. It's fierce resistance.

And even if in France, the situation can still be improved, there are other countries, Afghanistan, Iran and many others, where we can clearly see that the place of women in society is in total decline. And that, for me, is really a sign of concern. So even if in our country, there is still progress to be made before stopping the battle, I would say that more globally, on the scale of humanity, we must show solidarity, sisterhood, and think of all these women in the world who are not considered, who are mistreated and who are denied access to education.

We mentioned above Christine Lagarde, an impressive role model. Do you have a list of such competent women in your handbag to share with us?

Christine Lagarde is an exceptional woman. A “role model”, yes, but she is almost “too much”, she is out of the norm, and it is also good to look for “role models”, precisely, who are more accessible, so as not to get discouraged too quickly ( laughs ). Having good role models, good examples to follow, is something very important to allow women, in particular, to allow themselves to move forward. It is very important to have points of reference. I know, in fact, women in my circle, who I find admirable, competent, and based on the research established by certain captains of industry, I could recommend them without any difficulty. And besides, with 2Gap, we have created a database bringing together experts in all fields. We felt the need after being contacted several times by journalists, who told us that they had a lot of male experts in their address books, but few women. On the one hand, the speaking time of women in the media is generally 25% compared to 75% for men, and on the other hand, they often appear on screen as victims or witnesses, and less often as experts. It was therefore time to build a kind of reference, which we make available to journalists who wish it, to organizers of conferences and conventions, round tables… For any communication exercise If you go to the 2Gap website, you will see that we have gathered experts from all sectors, justice, entrepreneurship, CSR, communication. And in all transparency, this list could also be used to promote these women for positions of responsibility.

What do you think is the urgent need for women in the workplace today, and what can companies do to address it?

The urgent thing for all women is that women have to stop systematically sacrificing themselves to raise their children. We see that there is often a disconnect that occurs at the time of motherhood, and they have to learn to say no to that. I was not able to do it at one time, and somewhere my professional life was not built as I wanted, because I had a bit of the syndrome of the perfect woman and mother. We make children together, we have to raise them together, we have to stop it being the woman who always leaves the office at a reasonable hour because the child is sick for example. On this subject, I think there is an emergency. A small example: I have two daughters, and I deliberately do not teach them how to clean and iron because I tell myself that deep down, the day they live as a couple, they will not know how to do it, and so they will learn alongside their other halves. Women must refuse to take on the mental burden alone. The tasks must finally be shared.

The subject that the company can push is paternity leave. This paternity leave, men must take it, it should be mandatory. It is not enough to make it available. Even today, many men do not take this leave, which is therefore not a great success. Another important lever is to respect reasonable working hours. Setting meetings at 8:30 a.m. or after 6:30 p.m. does not make sense, and we feel that for the new generations, these are things that no longer work. We feel a demand for greater respect for private life, not to disturb employees on weekends. Companies are implementing codes of conduct in this direction. So things are already moving, and we need to speed up. But I also believe that, just as we teach women to position themselves for the position of their dreams or to dare to negotiate their salary increase, we must also tell them to learn to say no in a more intimate setting. To stop doing everything and to do everything at once.